I can’t believe that we are still having to answer this common sense question. Isn’t it obvious?
Apparently to the judges of the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, who recently overturned a lower court’s decision that the registry was cruel and unusual punishment, it’s not so clear. Neither was it clear to the judge in the Southern District of Florida who felt that forcing people into homelessness due to Miami-Dade county’s harsh residency restrictions isn’t punishment either. Incredible given that two of the original defendants on that case had died homeless on the streets of Miami by the time the Court heard the case. How is this possible?
Well what is common sense to us isn’t necessarily common sense to a judge. We must remember that judges, like all of us, live in their own world, socialize with their own friends and exist in their own preconceived notions about society, crime and the law. In other words, they have no clue what’s it like to live one day in our shoes. If, just for a week, one judge could have his name, photo and information listed on the Florida Sex Offender Registry, make him go out and find a job, a place to live while raising two kids or try to find a partner to spend life with, then have him come back and make the decision as to whether or not the registry is punishment. Wouldn’t that be glorious?
Residency restrictions, going to our kid’s schools, having a shot at keeping a job, finding a place to live, going to church, all of these things can continue to be denied us because our presence on the registry isn’t punishment. This is hogwash. You know it but the Court’s don’t see it because apparently we have yet to make our case crystal clear.
In an effort to do that we want to compile a list describing in detail the punitive effects on a registrant, their family, friends, employers and others in their lives, experienced living a lawful everyday life. Please include your experience in the comments below. Be specific and we will compile your comments for a “master list” of the punitive effects of the registry. Also remember that this is specific to our presence on the registry, not the criminal conviction itself nor any hardships as a result of probation requirements. PLEASE only list events that happened to you, not commentary.
Judges don’t know what they don’t know, so we have to tell them. We look forward to your comments.
‘DEEP FAKE’, IS THE NEXT CONUNDRUM FOR ‘PERSONS FORCED TO REGISTER’….
THE ‘FORENSICS PEOPLE’ ARE VERY CONCERNED!
FAC:
I think he is correct in saying ballet. The whole registry thing is nothing but a show.
I would have liked to have a say in the past elections. I use to love doing my duty to vote. When I was in line waiting I would chat up people and never judge them if they were voting for some other party than me. I was just happy we all had the RIGHT to vote.
Florida made a path for ex felons to be able to vote but a large sector of us were told we we were unworthy of our Constitutional right to vote. That even though we did our time, completed all of the requirements under the law, we are still 2nd and maybe even third class citizens who have less rights than some illegal aliens.
Not being able to vote is a lifetime ban / sanction that is under the classification “no brainer” PUNISHMENT. Is taking someone’s rights away and not ever restoring them not punishment? I can understand not being able to be a cop after a felony. I understand not working at a day care if you messed with kids.
What harm could we possibly cause by not being able to vote? The answer is, THEY are afraid we will sway the vote. To me, not allowing us to vote so they can win, is a form of election fraud, is it not?
The harm we could cause by voting would be to vote out those like Lauren Book who choose to pass laws to punish long after the sentence has been satisfied by the courts, and to redefine common sense definitions like “what 24 hours is” to deny us the rights granted every other American not on probation.
The judge withheld adjudication on every count so I am not a felon. That gives me the right to vote, and I have never taken voting as seriously as I do today.
WHL
Hold you head high and proud. Think of me and the others who cannot vote and make it worth it with YOUR vote.
CherokeeJack,
I do, I promise you that. I look up each and every person on the ballet and review their voting history. And I especially look up judges on ballets. When I vote, I really feel like I am voting on behalf of every registered citizen in the state, and I do my part to make it count for all of us.
Ballot. The ballet is something totally different.
That’s what I get for replying while being bored on a teleconference. Ballet sure reads different than Ballot 😉
we can all have a little fun once in a while 🙂
Yes we can 😁
SORNA is NOT PUNISHMENT as of TODAY, as the new Commander-in-Chief, an oxymoron, is allowing Immigrants with SEX OFFENSES, into the United StATES, WITH OUT ANY REGISTRY STATUE AND HE IS ALLOWING ANY IMMIGRANT IN THE USA WITHOUT PROVIDING A COVID TEST
..TALK ABOUT A SUPER SPREADER!
I think you are right! Anyone with a sex offense should be kicked out of the country and any immigrant with a sex offense should NEVER be allowed into the US. The U.S. is for the American Indians, the true Americans, and not these immigrants from another country!!! I say let’s kick out all non-American Indians too!! And let’s kick out those refusing to take COVID tests!! For a person who uses TruthAndScience as a moniker I find your comments biased. Also, can you explain why a Commander-in-Chief, who has never been impeached, is an oxymoron, compared to one that will be twice impeached, and further who most Americans who voted, and the rest of the world, think is a threat to Democracy?
First of all, I’m sure there are other folks here like me that were never convicted, yet are required to register. No judge ever told me that I would have to register as a SO for a year or the rest of my life. Currently, there is no way that I know of to be removed from the registry, short of having over a half million dollars to spend on taking my case all the way to the Supreme Court. That said, here are my views on the laws being punitive in nature, along with a few experiences that come with being on the registry.
Just having to register in person is punitive. It costs me 10 bucks to park every time. Not to mention gas and miles on my vehicle. Telling a prospective employer that you are required to register and can work whenever they need you, except for 2 or 3 hours when you have to go re register every quarter. Checking the box that says you have never been convicted of a felony on the job application, then the employer does a background check and you come back as a convicted sex offender. Punishment is an understatement.
I can’t coach my kids sports teams, though the incident that landed me on this registry had nothing to do with a minor. This one probably sucks the most as it punishes my kids too. Again, I was never convicted.
I don’t know where I can move. My wife and I have discussed moving to a more rural area or even out of state. Not knowing where you can or can’t go is punishment.
Just tonight, I nearly fell victim to a phone scam. Someone claiming to be from the sheriff’s office called to tell me there was a warrant for my arrest for failing to show up to court to give a dna sample. Being scared is punishment. Being afraid to call the real sheriff’s office to file a report is beyond punishment.
The punitive aspects of sex offender laws in Florida are numerous and never ending. My experience tonight explains certainly proves that.
This is just out.
https://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/maryland-v-rogers/
(I read it as) : Maryland petitioner cannot be forced to register except if a court ordered it at sentencing (because it is punishment).
This was a request for the Supreme Court to hear a case and they denied the petition (they will not be hearing the case).
I’m in the same boat as you Gene. And many others. No underlying conviction, yet still on registry. The goon squads even place it online like it’s a standing conviction.
Wholly and entirely unconstitutional to the core.
HOA said 👎 to purchase. Reason? I’m on a list.
The HOA denied you the ability to buy a house that was legal for you to buy?
WHL
I would not fight it, it will be a nightmare I know from experience.
When I was first put on the registry in 1997, I lived where there was an HOA. They made my life Hell 24/7 , 7 days a week, 365 days a year. I finally moved.
When I was packing my stuff, the HOA manager came over to taunt me. I told him when I was done packing, if you are still there when I was done, one of us was going to jail and the other to the hospital. He got the hint and left me alone while I finished packing.
Yea, I get it. HOA’s can harass and needle people to death. I live in an HOA neighborhood, and lucky for me it isn’t bad like most. But I will never move to another place that has an HOA.
Sorry to hear about your house, I really hope you find a good one without HOA problems.
Yep. There is a requirement in the Purchase Agreement that a sale or rental is contingent upon approval from the local HOA for that community.
I don’t remember that when I bought my home, but it was my first home purchase so I could have easily missed that part.
There are some places that in order to purchase HOA approval is required. And then there are others where the local HOA has no say in the matter.
Threat of Arrest with Restrictions and Compliances not law on date of my total release from the State. Is unusualy punishment from any other crime without the Label Sex
CMC and Jacob:
You haven’t been following my posts. Many registrants whose offense date predates July 1, 2011 are still on the registry because Does II isn’t final. They can petition individually to get off of the registry.
There are multiple lawsuits. If you read the agreed facts in Does I, you see that it is 269 pages. I have read through the 269 pages several times trying to help registrants get off of the registry.
There is a paucity of case law on the 406 petitions because removal is mandatory. If you run across any, post them here and I will read them.
I cannot keep responding to these vague and misleading “facts”.There are multiple cases finding different aspects of the registry unconstitutional in Michigan. There is nothing the legislature can do to undue these various decisions. The 269 page motion is only one in one lawsuit. There have been several successful lawsuits and I am confident that there are more than 1,000 pages. Actually, there are probably more than 1,000 pages on the SADO site alone and these don’t even cover half of the lawsuits.
Rest assured, I have been following these various cases and proposed laws in Michigan for several years. Registrants are being removed from the registry. Stop posting misinformation. Don’t post anything until you have actually read these cases and their supporting documents. You are only confusing people and making others like myself, respond to factually incorrect information.
CMC:
There are also privacy laws which vary from state to state. People have been successfully sued for publishing truthful information. In the context of registrants, you have to be patient until that issue is addressed in court. My sense is that the Florida registry will eventually get sued by an out of state registrant removed from that state’s registry.
Yes. I believe one of the Does in Alaska was finally given relief from Alaska State supreme under that States privacy law which is stronger than Federal. But it was “as applied” to Doe.
There is a lot of misinformation in this post by the various posters.
The ACLU filed Does v Snyder in 2014 and Does became final in 2017. It took the ACLU 3 years to get a final decision. The Oliver Law Group filed Does II in 2018 and we expect a final order in 2021 or 2022. Getting a final order usually occurs within about 2-4 years after filing suit. Getting a TRO can be had in days but in these cases usually take 3-6 months.
The registry in Smith was determined to be civil in nature in Smith. The Ex Post Facto provision (according to the U.S. Supreme Court) does not apply in the civil context. As FAC pointed out, they can appeal to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. This is a very tough circuit for any criminal defendant and certainly worse for registrants. They can also file for a rehearing in district court. If they can tweak their argument, they may have a winning argument in district court.
You have to remember that there were various state and federal court decisions in Michigan that found various aspects of the registry unconstitutional. Only a small portion of these various issues can be cured by the Michigan legislature. The fact remains. The vast majority of registrants whose offense date predates July 1, 2011 must be removed from the registry and there is no law that Michigan can pass to put them back on the registry.
It is difficult to make a determination if registrants whose offense is between October 1, 1995 and July 1, 2011 if they are required to register or not. The fact motion alone in Does I was 269 pages and is available free on SADO’s website. You have to remember that there are multiple lawsuits spanning well over 1,000 pages, if not 2,000 pages that must be read to make a determination if a person is required to register or not.
Getting to the point of publishing truthful information. There is very significant case law where people have successfully sued persons who have published truthful information. There are even more rights to privacy under state laws and constitutions. Michigan limits the publication of MDOC offender information to 3 years and after that, removal is mandatory and automatic.
MSP public registry website lists many thousands of people who offended prior to 6/1/2011.
“The fact remains. The vast majority of registrants whose offense date predates July 1, 2011 must be removed from the registry”
“It is difficult to make a determination if registrants whose offense is between October 1, 1995 and July 1, 2011 if they are required to register or not.”
Scratches head.
Must of the successful case law that I have come across concerning the right to petition removal from the registry applied only to those whose cases predated the AWA. It’s my understanding that for those whose convictions occurred on or after AWA would remain on the registry.
As for Michigan I’m very confident the State legislatures will find a way to lawfully apply the AWA. They may offer instant relief for those whose convictions predate AWA. There’s big bucks to be lost if they don’t.
If as you say the petitions are over 1,000 pages there’s probably much more being argued here than just ones status on the registry.
Why the Registry is NOT punishment was made abundantly clear by the US supreme court in Doe V Alaska in 2005. A conviction of a felony is public information and the mere distribution of such public information is NOT punishment.
At the time of its decision it noted that there was no in person requirement, that those required to registered were free to change jobs and residencies as other citizens and not unlike all other citizens, the registered citizen was required to update any change in residency with the DMV within 48 hours. Finally, depending upon ones situation and after a certain amount of time, it allowed the registered citizen to petition for removal.
All the other nonsense that followed, Residency restrictions, in person requirements, “Moving the Finish line”, all of this resembles Probation, in fact because of the harsh penalties imposed for violating any of these requirements makes them more punitive than probation.
As far as I’m concerned and the way I interpret the findings in both Miller and Alaska is that there may not be a “Right to live where you want” but we are free to change residencies as other Citizens. (Or should be)
“JZ on November 25, 2020 at 11:50 am
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
So is all this irrelevant now that we’ve lost the ex post facto case?”
So is all this irrelevant now that we’ve lost the ex post facto case
How do you know we’ve lost? It took Michigan ACLU 10 years to get the court to enjoin that state’s registry laws. We are eight years behind them.
Dismissed = Lost
What can we do? Appeal to SCOTUS?
First – there are several steps and we will know which ones the attorneys have taken within the next 4 weeks.
Second – there is an intermediary court between the district court and the SCOTUS, which is the Circuit Court of Appeals.
Maybe I won’t become a lawyer…
If I’m not mistaken, there was something about the statutory language in the Michigan case that probably will be corrected by the State legislature sometime in the future. There is no way the dissemination of public record information alone violates the ex post facto rule or is punitive in nature notwithstanding how “WE” feel. Our convictions are a public record end of story.
Now the rest of it, in person requirements, residency restrictions, internet access etc….are punitive and a different animal.
The requirement to register in person and all other in person requirements are a restraint on our liberty. Address verification visits by law enforcement violates our “Right to be let alone”. Restrictive internet and other social media access laws applied to those released from supervision violate our right of association and freedom of speech and the list continues on. Herein lies the battle.
The registry, as a stand alone public notification tool used to disseminate a public record of conviction, is here to stay.